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	<title>Episode Archives &#187; Tunheim</title>
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		<title>Tyrre Burks &#8211; From Grit to Growth: Players Health’s Journey &#124; Leveraged Storytelling Episode 5</title>
		<link>https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-5/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo Moulsoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2025 11:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Episode]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://tunheim.com/?p=13836</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Charlie Youakim on Sezzle’s Mission, Midwest Hustle, and the Long Game of Fintech Leadership</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-5/">Tyrre Burks &#8211; From Grit to Growth: Players Health’s Journey | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 5</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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				<h2 style="text-align: left" class="vc_custom_heading" >Tyrre Burks - From Grit to Growth: Players Health’s Journey | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 5</h2>
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		<p><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183742614 BCX0">By </span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183742614 BCX0">leveraging</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183742614 BCX0"> his personal story, </span><span class="NormalTextRun SpellingErrorV2Themed SCXW183742614 BCX0">Tyrre</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183742614 BCX0"> has built trust with investors, partners, and customers, proving that great entrepreneurs </span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183742614 BCX0">don’t</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183742614 BCX0"> just build businesses, they craft stories that inspire belief.</span></p>
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		<p><span data-contrast="none">This week, we’re joined by Tyrre Burks—a former pro football player and the founder of Players Health, a company that’s transforming how we think about safety and support in amateur athletics.</span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="auto">Tyrre Burks has turned personal struggles and near-failures into a powerful narrative that fuels Players Health’s mission. By leveraging his personal story, Tyrre has built trust with investors, partners, and customers, proving that great entrepreneurs don’t just build businesses, they craft stories that inspire belief.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="none">Originally from Chicago, Tyrre came to Minnesota to play football at Winona State—and he’s been building ever since. Drawing on his own journey through the ranks of amateur and professional sports, he saw the urgent need for a better system to protect young athletes. Now, with over $100 million raised, Player’s Health is leading the charge with an insurance and risk management platform built to keep athletes safe—on and off the field.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0,&quot;335559738&quot;:240,&quot;335559739&quot;:240}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="none">With NIL, media attention, and the business of youth sports exploding, this conversation couldn’t be more timely. Don’t miss it.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335551550&quot;:0,&quot;335551620&quot;:0,&quot;335559738&quot;:240,&quot;335559739&quot;:240}"> </span></p>
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				<a class="nectar-button medium regular accent-color  regular-button"  style=""  href="https://tunheim.com/leveraged-storytelling/" data-color-override="false" data-hover-color-override="false" data-hover-text-color-override="#fff"><span>More Episodes</span></a>
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<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-5/">Tyrre Burks &#8211; From Grit to Growth: Players Health’s Journey | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 5</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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		<title>Charlie Youakim &#8211; Buy Now, Pay Later, Build Forever &#124; Leveraged Storytelling Episode 4</title>
		<link>https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-4/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo Moulsoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2025 11:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Episode]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://tunheim.com/?p=13803</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Charlie Youakim on Sezzle’s Mission, Midwest Hustle, and the Long Game of Fintech Leadership</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-4/">Charlie Youakim &#8211; Buy Now, Pay Later, Build Forever | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 4</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
]]></description>
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				<h2 style="text-align: left" class="vc_custom_heading" >Charlie Youakim - Buy Now, Pay Later, Build Forever | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 4</h2>
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		<p>Charlie Youakim on Sezzle’s Mission, Midwest Hustle, and the Long Game of Fintech Leadership</p>
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		<p><span data-contrast="none">In this episode of Leveraged Storytelling powered by Tunheim, I sit down with Charlie Youakim, co-founder and CEO of Sezzle — the fastest-growing company on the NASDAQ this year and a proud Minnesota fintech built on values as much as velocity.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0}"> </span></p>
<p><span data-contrast="none">We dive into Sezzle’s core mission: helping the next generation of consumers build strong financial habits through its Buy Now, Pay Later platform — while simultaneously delivering the kind of performance Wall Street expects. Charlie shares how he’s managed to keep the company anchored in purpose while scaling aggressively in a competitive space.</span><span data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0}"> </span></p>
<p><span class="TextRun SCXW183906225 BCX0" lang="EN-US" xml:lang="EN-US" data-contrast="none"><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183906225 BCX0">This episode is full of insights on leadership, perseverance, and the long-game mindset that defines </span><span class="NormalTextRun SpellingErrorV2Themed SCXW183906225 BCX0">Sezzle</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183906225 BCX0"> today — a breakout company many Minnesotans </span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183906225 BCX0">don’t</span><span class="NormalTextRun SCXW183906225 BCX0"> yet realize is thriving right in their own backyard.</span></span><span class="EOP SCXW183906225 BCX0" data-ccp-props="{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0}"> </span></p>
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<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-4/">Charlie Youakim &#8211; Buy Now, Pay Later, Build Forever | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 4</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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		<title>Jazz Hampton &#8211; Startup Standout: How TurnSignl Took Off &#124; Leveraged Storytelling Episode 3</title>
		<link>https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-3/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo Moulsoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jun 2025 11:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Episode]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://tunheim.com/?p=13790</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>Talkin’ All That Jazz: TurnSignl CEO and Minneapolis Mayoral Candidate Jazz Hampton Joins Arick on the next Episode of Leveraged Storytelling</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-3/">Jazz Hampton &#8211; Startup Standout: How TurnSignl Took Off | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 3</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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				<h2 style="text-align: left" class="vc_custom_heading" >Jazz Hampton - Startup Standout: How TurnSignl Took Off | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 3</h2>
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		<p>Talkin’ All That Jazz: TurnSignl CEO and Minneapolis Mayoral Candidate Jazz Hampton Joins Arick on the next Episode of Leveraged Storytelling</p>
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		<p>Arick sits down with Jazz Hampton to explore how a startup born from tragedy—after the deaths of Philando Castile and George Floyd—became a breakout national story. As co-founder and CEO of TurnSignl, Jazz landed hundreds of top-tier media hits (NBC, PBS, USA Today, The Observer), using bold, mission-driven storytelling to expand from Minnesota to all 50. Now, as he sets his sights on Minneapolis City Hall, Jazz reflects on the power of momentum, message, and media.</p>
<p>You’re not going to want to miss this latest episode of Leveraged Storytelling, presented by Tunheim.</p>
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<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-3/">Jazz Hampton &#8211; Startup Standout: How TurnSignl Took Off | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 3</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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		<title>Gene Munster &#8211; How Visionary CEOs Use Storytelling to Lead—and Win &#124; Leveraged Storytelling Episode 2</title>
		<link>https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-2/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo Moulsoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 May 2025 11:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
				<category><![CDATA[Episode]]></category>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://tunheim.com/?p=13755</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>On this episode of Leveraged Storytelling—presented by Tunheim—host Arick Wierson sits down with none other than Gene Munster, the tech investing legend and Wall Street seer. Gene is the go-to authority on Big Tech’s Magnificent Seven and a master at decoding what makes tech leaders truly iconic.</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-2/">Gene Munster &#8211; How Visionary CEOs Use Storytelling to Lead—and Win | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 2</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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				<h2 style="text-align: left" class="vc_custom_heading" >Gene Munster - How Visionary CEOs Use Storytelling for Success | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 2</h2>
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		<p>Welcome to the second episode of Leveraged Storytelling with Arick Wierson! On this episode Arick Welcomes Gene Munster, a founding partner of Deepwater Asset Management, and a legendary investor who saw Apple&#8217;s potential before anyone else.</p>
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		<p>On this episode of Leveraged Storytelling—presented by Tunheim—host Arick Wierson sits down with none other than Gene Munster, the tech investing legend and Wall Street seer. Gene is the go-to authority on Big Tech’s Magnificent Seven and a master at decoding what makes tech leaders truly iconic.</p>
<p>In this episode, Arick and Gene dive into why storytelling isn’t just a soft skill for tech CEOs—it’s the ultimate differentiator. They’ll rate some of the industry’s biggest names—Sam Altman, Mark Zuckerberg, even Elon Musk—and unpack why great tech, a strong team, and perfect market fit still aren’t enough without the right narrative. For Gene, storytelling is often the missing piece that separates a great CEO from a legendary one. This is a must-listen masterclass in the power of narrative.</p>
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      "transcript": "We have to invest in CEOs that can tell their story successfully. Let's let's not worry about like the margins. Let's focus on their ability to tell the story, because that's going to draw all those other constituents in 

  

Hey everyone. It's Arick Wierson here with leverage storytelling. Brought to you by tunheim. I'm here with the legendary Gene Munster. Gene, Thanks for coming on the show.  

  

Awesome to be here, Arick.  

  

Gene, this show is all about storytelling. We look at people who are great storytellers, whether they're politicians or they're entrepreneurs, even cooks and how they tell their story through their food. I mean everything is game on this show, talk to me about your story first. 

  

So I'm 53 but I grew up in Minneapolis. I'm the youngest of four boys. My dad is an accountant. My mom's stay at home. Mom had a great childhood growing up, and my claim to fame is at age 11, I started a lawn mowing service, and it started out as ambition to get 5-10 lawns, to get a little bit of scratch and end up becoming an empire. And by the time I graduated from college, I was we were doing about 120 lawns a year, and went to St. Thomas for my undergrad, and had this great side hustle.  

  

Its too bad you were in Minnesota, because if you've been in Florida or Texas, it would have been a billion dollar business. 

  

We probably would have a great valuation on it. And I remember when I graduated, I was just so heads down. Graduated with entrepreneurship and finance, and I was just so heads down. I wasn't even thinking about what I was going to do after. And I remember talking to my dad at my senior year and thinking, like, what am I going to do next? And I think I cleared, like, 70 grand. This is in 1994 and and my pops telling me, like, you have to understand, like you want to take a step forward, you have to take a step back, and how much dough you make. And so had a huge opportunity of joining Piper in 1995 because I mowed for a year after college, and from Hany Nada, who is just an incredible person to learn the business from of tech, total visionary. For those who don't know Hany, he was one of the people that called the Internet as a sell side analyst, and then he went on to studying GGV, which was an early investor in all the big China companies, Alibaba. And I mean, the list of venture outcomes he's had is, is long. 

  

So you joined Piper in 1995 and then when was the big call? The big, big call that put gene Munster on the map. 

  

So the big call was in 2004 I think somewhere around there. But essentially, for Christmas, I got an iPod and I didn't have a Mac. And that was a problem back in the day, because you couldn't run iTunes on a PC, and so I would have to go to the post production room. There are a couple of post production people at Piper. I'd go there at night, and I would have to burn, rip my CDs onto their Macs, because they had Macs, and I couldn't hook up my iPod to get the music. On it. And I remember I'd set my watch and it took like, 30 minutes to rip each CD, and so I would sleep. And I thought, This is ridiculous. I got to go out and buy a Mac, and so,  

  

By the way, just so you know, anyone who's Gen Z listening to this has absolutely no idea what you're talking about. But anyway, continue. 

  

So I went out and bought a Mac and came back to the office and talked to some of the I was covering tech at the time, and I wanted, I really wanted to cover Apple. And I kind of saw this opportunity for Apple to really break out from being a computer maker to being a mobile device maker. And so that was kind of the aha moment as I was setting my alarm and ripping these DVDs in the post production, like you need to have this halo effect between iPods and that Mac business. And so, you know, one of my associates famously coined the term the halo effect when it came to Apple, that they're going to benefit from the Mac business from the iPod. And that was kind of, that was the big start. But when we made that call, it's fun to think back at it, but at the time, most analysts were really shamed after the .com boom, and they were not motivated. Our directors of research did not motivate us to have price targets that were significantly higher than where the stocks were, because a few years before, that's what analysts did. They put these huge price targets out, and then the stocks never met that. Then it was discredited the firm. And so I was the first analyst to break that after the .com and so at the time, I think Apple was like a $45 or something like that. This was many splits ago, but and I came out with $100 price target, and that just caught people like 

  

Which was gonna make it the world's most valuable company right? 

  

At that time, the $100 price target would make it. This is back in 2004 that would make it like, it would have been like a 10 Billion company. It wasn't. But a lot of people didn't think Apple was going to survive at that point. And the fact to go out with a big call like that, where you're well above the, you know, where the stock was at, really put the firm at risk. And I remember, as I we have a pre meeting before we go into our morning research meeting with the director of sales, and I remember him pulling me aside and saying, You better get this one right, because if you don't, you're going to be looking for a job. And because we're putting his sales people, had to go out and make the call. And so it's been, it's been a great ride and, but that's how it got started.  

  

So basically, you're the guy that saw the future for Apple, basically before anyone else, including your peers in Wall Street, right?  

  

Well, I think I would say that my team, I mean, was a team effort, but we got, we got it right with, I think, the iPod and and and and then, we were able to as each step kind of progress. We didn't see like that App Store with the iPhone back in 2004 but we saw them as being a mobile device company, and we're able to, kind of, each time they they got to one mountain, we were able to figure out what the next mountain was to go to. So I kind of think of it more as my vision wasn't where we are today, but I think each step of the way, we were comfortably ahead of where people were at. 

  

Now, fast forward, you know, a bunch of years, and now you've got your own asset management firm, Deepwater, right? You're one of the founding partners, and you're a regular on CNBC, on Bloomberg, on all the financial media, talking basically about The Magnificent Seven and the general tech industry, right?  

  

Yeah. So it's up to us to kind of stay relevant and to be in front of these companies. And part of it is the relevant piece is that, to understand to invest, because we invest both in private companies, so all the way from seed up to late stage, private companies, like an X AI or invest across that spectrum, and also public companies. But to understand, to make those investments, you really have to understand what the biggest companies are doing, because they're just so influential and and they can make or break a lot of these businesses that are much smaller. And so we've continued to do that, continue to to stay relevant and engage because ultimately helps inform our investment decisions. That's what's most important. Just across what we're doing. And so yes, we're been active on those companies, and it's been really fun, especially in the last two years, just as tech has kind of taken this next shift forward. 

  

Now, as we look at these, The Magnificent Seven, and some of these other private companies that are coming up the Open AI to the world and so on so forth. Talk to me about these CEOs, these visionary CEOs as storytellers. Talk to me about the importance of being able to really convey your story, not only to your to the marketplace or to investors, if they're still private, but also to employees, to partners. What is your experience? You're obviously someone who's sort of combing through lots of different data, kind of reading the tea leaves, trying to see where some of the markers are going to be moving. What are you looking for when you're looking at a CEO as a storyteller? 

  

Well, it's probably the most underappreciated part. I think that very few people can put their finger on that, like, is this CEO? Can they communicate their story? I think very few people can do that. They think about the management side of it. But I think that the successful, most successful companies, their CEOs, just crush it when it comes to telling their story and how we think about is it's critical, because it's not just about understanding what the company is going to become, potentially in the future, for like investors to understand where this company could go like, what's the next stage of growth and what could the earnings be like? I mean, that's part of the storytelling, but also when a CEO is successful at storytelling, they're telling stories to many different groups, and one of the groups is the investor piece. The other is that same story has to resonate with potential employees and gaining talent, and has to resonate with vendors and suppliers who want to extend credit to these companies and to commit resources to them. And so the the the superpower of storytelling is critical, and that was like when, when Apple that was the big for me, when, when Tim Cook came over. I have off the charts respect for Tim Cook, but he wasn't a storyteller when he joined. The ultimate storyteller was Steve Jobs. I mean, this guy would have people would go and he would talk. It was just him. He would talk for an hour and 45 minutes and just have people mesmerized. And his ability, when things would break on his live performances, his ability to come up with a story about something him and Woz did back in the day to keep people kind of entertained and off of the fact that the demo just broke. While they're fixing the demo. He was the he was the storyteller of all storytellers, and I think that what I saw, just observing him and my limited interactions with him really underscored, like, the critical superpowers. In a meeting yesterday, and I was frustrated at kind of one of the pitches we were hearing, and I came back to the meeting, I said, we have to invest in CEOs that can tell their story successfully. Let's let's not worry about the margins. Let's focus on their ability to tell the story, because that's going to draw all those other constituents in, whether it's employees or other investors down the road or suppliers, all that stuff. So it's critical.  

  

Do you often find that you've there's a company that's got a great idea, great market fit, great technology, the patents they need to protect that technology, but the storytelling piece isn't there, and if that's the case, you know it's obviously very tempting, but as you said, it's such a key component. Do you do you help the CEOs get better at that? Or what does that process look like?  

  

Well, unfortunately, we don't help them. We offer to, but it's rare that they take us up on it. And because you're when you're interviewing, we'll look at about 2000 private companies a year and so, and usually it's a 20 minute call initially, and so there really isn't a ton of feedback on the other side of it, but ultimately, is that 

  

Once they become part of your portfolio, for example,  

  

Oh, a portfolio company, definitely. 

  

I mean, that's, that's one of the big values that I think we bring to some of these companies, a lot of these companies, the founders. I mean, we've invested in founders 19 years old. I'd probably say the average founder's age is 30 years old, and so they're still learning, as I am, too. But so I think that, yes, that is a huge part of just understanding. Something unique that deep water brings to these companies, is the ability. We know what the language is that investors want to hear, and how tight that should be, and what the pressure points are that they want to hear. And so we spend a lot of time with those companies and help them just fine tune their message, at least to other investors.  

  

Let's talk about some well known CEOs, and I want you to grade them as far as their storytelling. Okay, let's start with Sam Altman open AI. 

  

We'll go through a scale of one to 10. We'll do a 1 to 10. 10 Being the best. I think he is a 7. I mean, he's considered kind of the godfather of AI. But I think he's a little bit too pragmatic, in the sense that he just doesn't have some of the energy that some of the other people will probably talk about. So I think he does. He does a good job of hitting the pressure point when, like, for example, people are concerned about where AI is and how far along we are. And he'll just come out and say, just remember, we can't keep up with demand. We're getting outages from our system. That's part of telling the story. So, there's also been some complications about, you know, just him and his management team that I think has made it hard for him to tell a really clear story.  

  

Mark Zuckerberg.  

  

Zuckerberg is getting better I'd put him at an 8 

  

Where was he when he first came on the national scene? 

  

A 2 maybe. He's gotten better since their year of efficiency a couple years ago, just at being clear. When he struggled, I'll tell you a low point, it was probably he was probably a 5, when he was talking focused on the metaverse. I remember there was famously an earnings call. And the last question is, why should we believe in the metaverse? And he just couldn't communicate it. Andthe next call, after that, they started to shift their message towards AI. And so I think he's done a good job of that.  

  

All right, we could go through the list but I gotta ask the one that everyone's talking about. You know who I'm talking about Elon Musk. Storyteller? 

  

Elon, he's a 10 out of 10, and I recognize that he's a polarizing figure. And I want to look at this objectively. Is that if you look at what Tesla stock is doing, and look at the fact that it trades right now close to 80 to 100 times this year's earnings. That's a sign of a company for for those of you who aren't looking at earning this, that's a metric in terms of how we think about valuation. The lower that number, the cheaper the stock is. That higher that number -  

  

That's not typical for an automotive maker, right?  

  

Not typical. Yeah, the 80 multiple or 100 multiple usually compares to most stocks trade around 20 or 25 something like that. And I think that his ability to in the midst of chaos, to be able to focus people on the long term is - He's at that the highest on the list. There's a couple that are close to that. But Elon really wrote the book in terms of storytelling, and he's done it for a decade.  

  

So gene a lot of the people that watch this, I hope that everyone watches this, everyone from firefighters to Elon Musk himself. But really the most people that are watching this are people that are in the communications business, journalists, reporters, PR professionals, crisis management, people, politicians. You know those types of people. AI is proving to be such a disrupter in so many facets of life, but particularly when it comes to communications, it's just upending the playing field. I'd love to give you the floor and kind of reflect upon some of these changes that are happening when it comes to the communications business people are ultimately worried about, are they're going to be replaced? Are we going to be reading all AI generated stories five years from now? What do you say about the dynamic that we're seeing unfold in front of us?  

  

Maybe just for starters. Before we talk about the communication side, just talk about the underlying trend of AI. At Deepwater we believe that the substance is going to exceed the hype. And there's a lot of hype around AI, which is a pretty bold statement. We also believe that we're going to reach in the markets this just spectacular run. Still the next few years, it's going to end in a bursting of a bubble, similar to similar to what we saw 25 years ago. And so from a background like this, is real, what's going on with AI is real.  

  

And so when we focus more on just what's going on with communications, I think at the most basic level is just the velocity of communications is increasing and the cost of bringing those down is decreasing. And so this, of course, is just using generative AI to create copy for different things. And we're also seeing on the communication side, I think, from our own experience we used to have a full time editor, we publish a lot of written content, and now we don't have that. We use multiple LLMs to basically do do that piece. But on top of that, on the communication side, AI, the ability to target, I think, is going to be much more advanced than any sort of the targeting means that have been used for last 15 years. And so when you put that together, on the communication side, the ability to build content faster and to get it out there more quickly. I think what you're going to see is just the addictiveness of content and communications, I think is going to increase, and it's hard to break away from some of them now, and that that's going to make it more difficult, I think, for new messages to get through, because I think people are going to get even more intense on that, and just kind of to keep this flow, this thought flowing through is we think that AI ultimately is going to cause more tribalism, and that people, as they get comfortable in whatever their views are, the machines will just reinforce that even more so from a communication standpoint, unfortunately, I think that's going to be probably one of The biggest detriments to humanity around AI is just, we're going to become more more silod.  

  

And what do you think the communicators, whether they be on the corporate communication side or journalists, what can they do to sort of counter that, or at least delay that process?  

  

Well, there is, there is some good news here. Is that, you know, we talk about these tools and and you know, there is something that ultimately, humans really crave that the machine AI won't take away. And those three things are creativity, community and empathy. Creativity- You can debate the machines can be creative, but there's something about creativity when it comes from another human that humans appreciate. Giving an example. Is through my travels to Japan this I've noticed these robotic pets, and they've never taken off. They've for years, the Japanese have been trying to get these robotic beds, but there's something about a heartbeat.  

  

They're popular in Japan, though, right? But nowhere else, right?  

  

Well, even marginally popular, I will go and meet with companies out there who are trying to build a better robotic dog and at the end of the day, people.  

  

There's something about a heartbeat, right? 

  

There's something about a heartbeat. And I think that when it comes to creativity, even though, like, if it was a song that was written that was in used AI, but inspired by something that, like a reputable musician did, then I think people would be okay with it. But if it was just written by a machine, I don't believe that humans will embrace that. So I think that the creative piece, like be true, like creative that is, like a protectable superpower AI can't compromise and separately, on the community and empathy side. When you're doing mass communications, I don't know how you get around this, but I just think, like at a human level as I've thought about how this changes. What would I do if I was 18 years old right now? How would I be approaching my career? And I think that I would be approaching it as someone who is focused on building relationships and being able to  listen and just being empathetic. The machine, by definition, can bring people together, but just getting people in a room isn't what community is. Community is actually people connecting with each other.  

  

You know, I have a 20 year old daughter who's in the Netherlands studying film school or doing doing creative media, basically, and she really loves editing, but I keep on telling her that is in the creative array of things, that's going to be one of the first things that's going to be completely automated with AI, in my opinion. I've been encouraging her to, like, become more of a producer, something these intangibles, the creative plus, sort of the organizational capabilities. Those are some of the things that I think that AI will eventually get there, but it's going to be a long ways away.  

  

I think it's good advice. Good advice. I think, just kind of embracing that the human to human piece. And you know, whether it's somebody who's doing video editing or somebody who's doing some coding, the percentage of code, obviously, is that's being written by. Machines is going up astronomically at fast pace. I think that there's a piece around. I was going to kind of describe for communications people like, what's the the persona you really want to go for that cuts through the noise of AI. it's, it's the person who's probably the life of the party. It's not necessarily the smartest person, it's the person who people are gravitated towards.  

  

If you'd have asked me 15 years ago, I'd have said, well, you want to be with the smartest person, the scientist, the whatever that historical role is. But I think that kind of the shift here, because all that really advanced stuff, the machine's just going to do it at Deepwater. We have an affiliate company that uses AI to pick stocks, and that's pretty unique, because in theory that could put our existing business at risk, some of that at risk, but we recognize that the machine's ability to think at a scale that the 10 of us can do is. That's the piece, I think, for communicators, is they know that be authentic. And you know, just make sure that you're the people you're trying to communicate with. Don't figure out that you're using these tools.  

  

Good advice from Gene Munster, thank you, everyone for joining another episode of leverage storytelling presented by tunheim. I'm Arick Wierson, we'll see you next time."  

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<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-2/">Gene Munster &#8211; How Visionary CEOs Use Storytelling to Lead—and Win | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 2</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
					
		
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>Shelley Kohan &#8211; The Secret Sauce of a Winning Pitch &#124; Leveraged Storytelling Episode 1</title>
		<link>https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-1/</link>
		
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Leo Moulsoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2025 18:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://tunheim.com/?p=13638</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[<p>What makes a pitch impossible to ignore? How do the best stories cut through the noise? To find out, Arick sits down with Shelly Kohan—Forbes senior contributor, retail and fashion powerhouse, and professor at FIT in Syracuse. She’s spent years talking to the biggest CEOs in the game, spotting trends before they go mainstream, and deciding which stories get told.</p>
<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-1/">Shelley Kohan &#8211; The Secret Sauce of a Winning Pitch | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 1</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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		<p>Welcome to the very first episode of Leveraged Storytelling with Arick Wierson! On the inaugural episode Arick Welcomes Shelley Kohan, a contributor to Forbes, and Professor at FIT in New York.</p>
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		<p>What makes a pitch impossible to ignore? How do the best stories cut through the noise? To find out, Arick sits down with Shelley Kohan—Forbes senior contributor, retail and fashion powerhouse, and professor at FIT and Syracuse. She’s spent years talking to the biggest CEOs in the game, spotting trends before they go mainstream, and deciding which stories get told.</p>
<p>In this episode, Shelley breaks down the secret sauce behind a winning pitch, what grabs an editor’s attention, and how her Gen Z students at FIT keep her tapped into the pulse of fashion’s future. Whether you’re in media, marketing, or just want to tell better stories, this is a masterclass in grabbing—and keeping—your audience’s attention.</p>
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      "transcript": " I think I really gravitate to pitches that are made to me that actually contain some aspect of a storytelling idea. 

  

Hey, everyone, it's Arick Wierson with the inaugural episode of leverage storytelling. Brought to you by Tunheim. Today, I'm joined by Shelly Kohan, my good friend here in front here in town from New York. Shelly, thanks for being on the podcast.  

  

I am so excited to be here with you today.  

  

Now, Shelly, just for everyone's benefit, you're a professor at the School of Business Technology at FIT in New York City. You are a senior contributor to Forbes. You wear many different hats.  

  

That's right.  

  

Today we're going to talk about storytelling, and I think that you know what we're trying to do in this podcast, what I've been doing in the blog is introducing people to different ways in which they can get their stories told, the different techniques for getting stories to connect with viewers or listeners. So talk to me a little bit about how did you become a storyteller 

  

that's so interesting. So yes, I have a lot of expert experience in the retail industry, and through that, I started working for a technology company, and in my work with the technology company, I was often put as a spokesperson to talk to the industry about what was happening. And from there, I actually started writing and doing podcasts, and you know, that kind of started my storytelling part of my career. So I have a weekly podcast called retail unwrapped. And then, like you said, I'm a senior contributor@forbes.com so it's been great. 

  

You know, I'm sure you get pitched all the time by companies that want to get covered in Forbes. And obviously, I'm sure you look at some of them, I'm sure there's too many to actually go through with the fine tooth comb. But tell me, how is that process? How do you decide, like, what you're going to write about, or what you're going to ignore? 

  

Well, so it's interesting. So I get pitched all the time, and the ones that I usually ignore right away are, like, press releases, because that's something everyone gets. Press releases are dead, basically, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, everyone gets it. And unless you're going to add to the story, it's really not a story. I think I really gravitate to pitches that are made to me that actually contain some aspect of a storytelling idea. So just saying, Hey, do you want to interview this person? Not that interesting, but I have some people that actually pitch to me. You know, I have this great story. Here's what's happening, here's some data points, and then that becomes more interesting. So and I also think about what interests me and what's going to interest my readers. 

  

Tell me. So how broad are your swim lanes at Forbes? I mean, you're obviously a retail guru. You talk about everything from, you know, home products to consumer electronics to fashion and apparel beauty. But within, you know, is it broader than that? Or how do you sort of define those swim lanes? Well, 

  

retail is like a $7 trillion industry in the US. So that's pretty broad. So I'm in retail, and, you know, I can talk about and write about and story tell all things retail. So typically, my stories are going to have some type of retail focus in them, and that's kind of what my swim lane is the 

  

now, if someone were to pitch you on, say, Hey, I've got something that's happening in the supply chain of retail, does that?  

  

Absolutely, that's part of retail. Absolutely, I actually have written a lot about supply chain. 

  

Tell me, you know, this is for people that are listening to this podcast that are saying, Hey, I love to get covered. I got a great story. I'd love to be covered by Forbes. For example, they think they should be in Forbes. Like, what's the best way to sort of pitch you then? If they're not gonna, it's not a press release, if they want to give you the exclusive, like, talk about that process. 

  

Usually, people will reach out to me and they'll say, Hey, I got this great story. You know, here's kind of the topic of the story. Here are a few points that would be interesting, and here's why it's important  

  

Do they keep it short?  

  

Definitely keep it short.  

  

How many like? What 100 words? 50 words?  

  

Well, you know, you can have more than 100 words, but, you know, just a short pitch about what's the story, why is it important, and what are some of the key points around it? And I think that's where I really gravitate to interesting stories to write about. 

  

You know, I've talked to, you know, a number of reporters that even over the past four or five years, you know, in New York and other major cities that are getting constantly put under more pressure to produce more content with less time to produce that content. So I know people, for example, in certain outlets that you know, three years ago, four years ago, were having to write two stories a day, sometimes three stories a day, of like four to six hundred words, and suddenly now they're having to do double duty. Do you have sort of a certain metric or output that you're looking to do, or is it more kind of, it's up to you. Is your discretion?  

  

Well, it's kind of up to me, in my discretion. You know, they Forbes.com likes me to write as much as I can, because people like my stories in, like, reading them, but I'll tell you that where the best stories come from. The best stories come from when I actually interview someone, and I'll tell you why. So oftentimes, when people go, like, pitch me a story, they'll pitch a story with a certain set of parameters. When I interview people, I all of a sudden, we're having a great conversation, and we go off on this side trail, and that becomes the best part of the story, the unknown, you know, part of the story that wasn't really pitched up front. And those make the best stories. Those kind of just you go down this journey of a story with someone that you're interviewing, and it becomes a great you know, part of the story.  

  

When you talk to CEOs or other C level executives of these big companies, what is it that you find most compelling about those, those those those conversations. Is it the how they got there? Is it what their plans are for the future? Where do you where do you tend to focus your storytelling? 

  

Yeah, so the first thing I always do when I'm interviewing, like a CEO or any executive, is I always do my research ahead of time, and I don't ask them or, you know, talk about anything that I can get myself through the research. And that's probably an obvious aspect, 

  

But that's not necessarily going to be obvious to the person who's listening or watching the interview, right?  

  

No, but somewhat No, not watching. But a lot of us who write will try to stick to the parts of the story that aren't available, readily available. And so when I'm speaking to a CEO, I will ask them, you know, if sales have been good, I will congratulate them on the great revenue or the great profits. If sales haven't been good, I probably don't say anything about that. I kind of like leave that off, because I want to create this nice relationship with the interview process. I do focus on the leadership skills a lot, so I gravitate to asking, you know, how leaders lead, or what they do, or why is it important? And I always focus on, you know, what can we expect from you next, or the company next? So I do a little bit of you know, what's happening now, if there's a particular topic that I'm interviewing them about, you know, getting details about that topic, a strategy, they just announced, a collaboration, they just announced, and then what can we expect from that company in the future?  

  

And how do you keep it interesting? So these CEOs, sometimes you're the seventh of 15 interviews they're doing in a junket. How do you keep your interview interesting and memorable?  

  

The way that I keep it interesting and memorable is, one, I don't ask them anything I can find myself. And two, I make it fun for them, like people, anybody wants to have fun, you know, when they're being interviewed, so I try to keep it fine. I try to keep it, you know, personable. And I think by doing that, when I reach out to these CEOs, you know, they're more apt to say, oh, yeah, you know, I enjoy talking to Shelly. So let's do that interview and keep it short, too. 

  

And what's the construct Do you have? Like a framework? Do you think of it as a three act play? Do you set something up conflict resolution? How did you solve it? You know, how do you structure your interviews? 

  

Thank you for asking. That's actually a four act play. So in a 20 minute interview, I try to keep my interviews to 20 minutes. The reason I do that is because 30 minutes gets too long. 40 minutes, you've lost the listener. So I try the sweet spot for me is like 20-25 minutes. And I usually do it what I like to say is four big topics. So we're going to cover these four big topics, and then here are the sub points under those four big topics. So I try to stick to four big topics. That's kind of the secret sauce to my writing and interviewing. 

  

Now, one of the other hats that you wear is that of a professor, yes, and that's an entirely different type of storytelling. You want to talk about that a little bit, sure. 

  

So storytelling, what's interesting about storytelling as a professor is I love stories that the students help in that journey of storytelling. And what I mean by that is, is, if I'm teaching a particular strategy, or I'm teaching a particular discipline or trying to teach students something, I like to ask students questions and then through their answers, that helps me then create the story for them. And sometimes students like I am so I'm into the industry so much that sometimes I have to in my professor role, I have to backtrack a little bit and really start from the beginning of a story with students, whereas, you know, when I'm doing interview. And stuff that's not necessarily what I need to do, but I like involving the students, because they help create a journey or a story that's more interesting than me just coming out and lecturing for, you know, 45 minutes. 

  

Before we got on this podcast, we were talking about ever cropping Fitch, and you were remarking to me that it was a brand that had gone through its trials and tribulations some years ago and was sort of off the radar, and suddenly, because of your students, you realized that it was back in vogue, and it was a brand that was hot again, with, you know, Gen Z or, you know, and tell me a little bit about how the students actually inform your writing for Forbes, or some of the other things that you're doing. 

  

It's great. Yeah, so I so at the beginning of every semester, I asked students who are your favorite retailers, and so they tell me three or four retailers that are their favorite retailers. Every student has to do this. And so one year, I had one set of students come up and they're like, Oh, our favorite retailers, Abercrombie and Fitch. And I'm like, Oh, that's weird. I haven't heard that in, like, a couple years. And then, you know, two students later, there's another student, oh, my favorite retail is Abercrombie and Fitch. And then it happened again and again and again this one class. So what I did was I ran with it. So after all the introductions were done, I then went to the class and said, guys, I gotta ask you, what's with Abercrombie and Fitch. And then this great discussion took place with the students about they're doing things great. Their genes are great. I love the company. I'm like, wow. And the best part of the story is that back in the back of the classroom, this one little student raises her hand and she goes, I wasn't going to say this, but my aunt is Fran Horowitz, who's the CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch. So that was just such a great dynamic storytelling moment for me, unplanned, unstructured and just on the fly. 

  

We today, took a tour you and I earlier this morning at the Mall of America, which is just down the road here from Tunhiem, and we went into a store that has launched, basically, it was a Tiktok brand, and now it has its first brick and mortar present. I think it's the first one, and the only one in the United States or in the world. Could you talk a little bit about this trend of social media and retail, and how those two sort of hitherto separate disciplines are sort of colliding right now.  

  

I think it's really interesting. So social media has become the brand influencers for a lot of you know, clothing brands or retail, and it really resonates with Gen alpha and Gen Z, and they've actually become the new celebrities. So these influence are the new celebrities. And it's great because the digital native brands now we have so many different digital native brands that otherwise would not have been as successful if they didn't have platforms, platforms like Instagram or Tiktok. So it's been a lot of fun. And the other thing I noticed when we did our tour of Mall of America is that you looked at Edikted, which was the Tiktok brand that opened up the pop up store in Mall of America. And I walked through the store, and it was vibrant. It was fun. The fixtures were fun. There were great visuals all over the wall. And I think, Wow, this is a lot of fun. I get this, and then I would go into maybe another store that has been around for a long time, and I walk in, it's like, oh, this seems dated. This seems like, you know, it's always been for the past 10 years. So the word to the wise is brands got to really level up what they're doing in the physical retail space, because when these digital brands do these little pop up shops and stuff, they're really attacking it in a very experiential way. 

  

What have you found? I mean, retail brands, by their very nature, are supposed to be connected with the end consumer. That's their that's their core business. But a lot of brands have really not, even though, even though we're 10 years, you know, 15 years, if you want to count Facebook and some of these others into the social media era, they still struggle to figure out how to leverage this new medium. Maybe you could reflect a little bit on that dynamic. 

  

Yeah. I mean, I think some of the challenges is that, how do you use the social media to drive and build engagement? And that's what you have to do. It's not looking at these social media platforms on, how can we market or sell more things? What you really want to approach it as is, how do I become very authentic with my audience, to drive deeper engagement? And by the way, the result of doing that gets you those other two things, which is, you know, higher engagement, and it also gets you more sales and deeper loyalty, all the things you want to do, but you have to really use social media as an authentic, authentic play with your target market. It's 

  

sort of a bank shot, right? Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that a lot of Chief Marketing Officers struggle with, right? Because. It's already hard, you know, I don't, you know there's a, there's a, you know, a cemetery full of CMOS that have, you know, gone to the grave not knowing how to measure ROI and marketing, and now it's a bank shot, right? Yeah, exactly. So tell me a little bit more about how your students, you know, inform some of your storytelling. You know, you gave the example of Abercrombie and Fitch. We talked about, you know, some of these, these phygital brands that are, you know, digital brands that are now moving into the physical space. How else does having this contact with the youngest generation of consumers? How else does that impact and affect what you're doing?  

  

They keep me on my toes. I mean, they literally keep me on my toes. There's another example of I had a we were doing, follow the leader. It's an assignment I do in my leadership class. And I say, Okay, what leadership we follow? So if I'm picking them, I'm picking Brian Cornell and Doug McMillan, and, you know, all the big, you know, guys that we all know that we follow all the time. And you know, sometimes I have students that are like, you know, I want to follow, you know, Terence Riley of you know, Stanley Cup. And I'm like, Really, okay, we're a fashion school, but, okay, talk to me.  

  

Let's talk about Stanley. I think that's a, I think that's a terribly interesting story, because, you know, I'm someone who goes to a lot of conferences and events, and I'm always getting these Yeti cups. And I think Yeti is a terrific brand. I think it's well made and durable, and I always lose the caps, which is part of the reason that I got so many like capless, lidless Yetis at home. Well, right? But suddenly, my eight year old, she comes home one day and she has to have a Stanley, because all the girls in her class has Stanley's, and now we've bought, like, six Stanley's and and how did Stanley suddenly catapult into the forefront of the of these thermal mug the thermal mug space, if that's what it's called.  

  

Two words, Terrence Riley. Tell me about that. Terence Riley is the CMO of Stanley Cup now, but he came from Crocs. He's a marketing genius, and when he came to Stanley Cup, he kind of really just made Stanley Cup a household brand fashion. So let's think about what, what's transpired over the past few years, all of us, me included. I'm always walking around with my water bottle, right? We all want our water bottle and our drinks and drinks cups and holders are fashion. So people are like, Look. They're not fashion. It's, you know, to hold water, but it's not when I'm wearing this outfit, I want a, you know, yellow container. When I'm wearing my purple outfit, I want a purple container. It's a fashion item. Stanley Cup caught onto that very quickly. They come out with their fashion colors. They come out with their, you know, February Stanley Cups, and they they also use social media. So coming from Crocs, that was a big thing that Terence did with Crocs, is use social media. So it's a whole big it's just a change of marketing in terms of, you know, making a water cup mug, a fashion it's a fashion item. 

  

You know, I was talking a minute ago about my daughter, who introduced me that I had always heard of Stanley, but I didn't associate it with anything special until, you know, six months ago. The other thing that I think is really interesting is, you know, she is sort of my barometer, which I would never think, because I when I was eight years old, I don't think I was thinking about anything related to fashion, but the other big thing that that she's brought to my attention is, is how beauty has gone from something that was focused on maybe teenagers, young adult women, and now it's, it's, it's trickling down all the way to the younger generations. You know, younger in the sense that she's eight years old. She's in third grade, and she's also very, you know, she understands different makeup brands and all this kind of stuff. What's happening in this space, where it's younger and younger people are getting involved and paying attention to these things? 

  

Well, I think one of the big changes so Ulta Beauty came on the beauty scene over the past decade, and they've really done an amazing job. So they're in the neighborhoods, they're in the community. And what's interesting about Ulta Beauty specifically, is they have this price range that goes from, you know, low price drugstore brands up to high luxury brands. And so then they also have younger brands and they have more established brands. So what that has done is now mom and daughter can shop together, okay? And so I think that's really changed the dynamic, and it's created kind of this social atmosphere for moms and daughters to shop together. I also believe that access is very important, and when you have, you know, Ulta Beauty in the neighborhood store, you know, right there, within very close distance to where people are living. It becomes a quick pop in, as opposed to, like, you know, going to a big mall or, you know, it becomes like an everyday thing that you can just pop into Ulta Beauty see what's happening. I think. They've done a good job with really having all kinds of levels and access of different beauty products and stuff. And I think the other thing that has really impacted this younger generation is the whole wellness movement. So taking care of your skin, taking care of your body, making sure that you are, you know, using good products, making sure that products are organic, or that they are, you know, BPA free. So all of those, I believe, has really upped the beauty game. It's not just about, you know, makeup. It's becoming more about skincare and wellness.  

  

Speaking of skincare, that's that's something again, going back to my eight year old, she talks about skincare. She's like, I'm really into skincare. I'm like, what you're eight years old. How are you into skincare? But you know, what's interesting is, I had a bunch of her friends over for a party two or three months ago, and I was just sitting around the kitchen. I asked them, I said, Well, what do you all want to be when you grow up? And without fault, every single one of them said they want to be a YouTube influencer, of course, and I think that's such an interesting sort of statement in terms of where society is focused right now. But I know that you actually have a former student of yours from FIT who actually got a degree at fit and then went on and now she's one of the biggest influencers out there, right?  

  

That's right, Kate Barlett. She was one of my students. And we get a lot of students at FIT that want to be quote, unquote, stylists and influencers. So instead of like telling students, oh no, you have to go the Business Route, or you have to learn merchandising, you have to buying fashion, Institute technology has done something great, which is writing curriculum to address the needs of the current market. How do you use social media to, you know, enhance your brand. How do you become a stylist? So, we've written courses curriculum how to be a stylist. We've written courses about, you know, how do you use social media? You know, we've written courses in marketing about, how do you market your brand in the digital age? So, we're actually leaning into that. So students that graduate are actually coming into the workforce with a wealth of experience on what is relevant today.  

  

And she apparently has been very successful, right? I think, I think she still collaborate then with with the university. 

  

We've had her come back to do a few she just did a talk. I last semester the maybe two semesters ago, she came and did a talk. So our alumni were and I'm alumni also from FIT in addition to teaching there, but the alumni are very connected to the college.  

  

Do you feel that younger people, whether it's because of social media or any other influence, are they better storytellers than old fogies like you and me?  

  

Definitely, no question about it, they are excellent storytellers.  

  

What do you think accounts for that? 

  

Well, I think part of it is so Gen alpha, believe it or not, is entering the workforce this year. So Gen alpha is entering the workforce. Gen alpha is the first generation that has literally been digitized since birth, so their whole life has been on camera, video, all of that. And that makes them very social in that aspect, and very comfortable with storytelling. They're telling quick stories on Instagram, they're telling stories on Tiktok. They're digital natives, so it's very easy for them to tell these quick stories. I think the challenge with that generation lies more in the critical thinking side of things. And of course, Gen alpha, also known as the COVID kids, you know, the socialization aspect, the interpersonal areas, probably something that will be a challenge for them  

  

Isn't that interesting that they're the first generation that's fully immersed in social media, yet they're also being criticized as the least social,  

  

right? Isn't that Interesting.  

Well anyway, Shelley, it's been great having you on this inaugural episode of leverage storytelling. 

Thank you so much for having me, and of course, I love reading all your stories too.  

Well, we'll trade we'll trade stories, swap stories. 

Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right. Thanks, Shelly."  

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<p>The post <a href="https://tunheim.com/episode/leveraged-storytelling-episode-1/">Shelley Kohan &#8211; The Secret Sauce of a Winning Pitch | Leveraged Storytelling Episode 1</a> appeared first on <a href="https://tunheim.com">Tunheim</a>.</p>
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